Don’t Miss Your Shot: Insider Advice from a Campus Recruiter

If you’re watching this in your second year, you may already be behind.
Finance recruiting doesn’t wait. It starts early—and moves fast.

In this episode of the Career Starter Podcast, I sit down with Laura Kay (https://ca.linkedin.com/in/laurakay3108), who leads campus recruiting at National Bank, to break down exactly:
- When you need to start preparing (hint: yesterday)
- What separates offers from rejections
- How students unknowingly disqualify themselves
- The small things that make a big impression

If you want a summer internship in investment banking, sales & trading, or equity research, you can’t afford to wing it.

🎧 Start watching now. Your future competition probably already has.

CHAPTERS

00:00 - 🎬 Teaser: Don’t Miss Your Shot
00:01:29 - Laura’s Role and the Growth of Campus Recruiting  
00:04:35 - What Students Ask in Coffee Chats  
00:05:43 - When to Start Recruiting (It’s Earlier Than You Think)  
00:08:55 - Use Chats to Explore Other Finance Paths  
00:10:30 - The First-Year Student Who Stood Out  
00:13:45 - Didn’t Land It? Do the Right Things Next  
00:17:38 - About clubs 
00:19:52 - Be Proactive and Make the Connection Clear  
00:22:30 - Laura’s Advice to First-Year Students  
00:24:17 - Write on LinkedIn
00:25:01 - Stock Pitches   
00:27:22 - You Have to Love the Industry to Last  
00:27:30 - What Looks Good for Different Finance Roles  
00:28:30 - Financial Modelling Is Becoming a Must-Have  
00:29:32 - Grades help Narrow Down the Applications  
00:34:34 - Go Beyond Membership: Build Real Experience  
00:36:00 - Your Internship Is a Four-Month Job Interview  
00:39:01 - How to Build Referral-Worthy Relationships  
00:40:33 - A Referral Is Their Reputation on the Line  
00:42:32 - “I Like a Good Cover Letter” (When They Matter)  
00:48:50 - If You Don’t Know the Answer, Say So  
00:50:53 - How Recruiters Use LinkedIn (And Why You Should Too)  
00:53:10 - Why Basic Coding Knowledge Is Gaining Importance  
00:54:45 - How Students Shoot Themselves in the Foot  
00:56:32 - Send the Thank You Note (Seriously)  
00:58:36 - Just Get Your Foot in the Door  
01:10:00 - Thank You & Closing Remarks


🎤 Podcast Recommendations:
Business Breakdowns
Acquired
Odd Lots
Invest Like The Best

Connect with Laura Kay: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/laurakay3108

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📣 Connect with Ashley!!!

LinkedIn, website, X

P.S.

To see all the Career Starter Program Book recommendations, click here: 

Transcript

0:00

Let's talk investment banking And just because that's earliest timeline and, you know, it's at least equivalently complex and difficult to get a job there as sales and trading or for research. What advice can you give me that would maximize my chances in terms if you can get this grade, if you can get this grade, if you join this club or if you do these things, what are those things that you would that you would recommend that would what are those things that you would recommend that would what are those things that you would recommend that would that you that person would then have a very high probability of success? Yeah. So I think it's ... Laura, this is actually a really interesting example. What is doing the right things after in this candidate's case, they’re a first year student who frankly made it further than one would typically expect for the first year. For sure. What does doing the right thing mean for setting themselves up for the future? So I think, you know, one could be... It's fall of my second year and you and I crossed paths and we have, you know effectively a coffee chat. What stands out to you from those folks that like people who you have coffee What stands out to you from those folks that like people who you have coffee It's kind of interesting that you kind of bring that up. There is a student that I had a coffee chat with and, Welcome back to another episode of the Career Starter Podcast. My name is Ashley Misquita and I'm your host. If you’ve already subscribed to the show, thank you very much, but if you're new, please go ahead and subscribe. Because today, like every day, I'm going to be bringing you amazing guests and we're going to uncover the tips and strategies that will help you get your dream job. And once you're in that job, help you launch your career and accelerate it like a rocket ship. Okay, so off we go. Laura. It is so great to have you here. We've chatted over, I guess like six months or so now since we first crossed paths. You have a really interesting role at National. You are doing things that really help students a lot. I'm very excited for this podcast. So why don't we kick things off, Laura. First off, thank you again and let's move into just tell us about your background. You know, some of your path and what you're doing now. And then we'll probably go into more questions from there. Sounds like a plan. So basically I've been at National for like the last 12 years. I would say that overall my career has been predominantly in the financial industry, not in the business per se, but kind of peripheral supporting kind of cast member. But when I joined National, it was really at that time in my career I was wanting to take a bit of a step back, and I joined as an executive assistant to a, you know, financial markets management Committee member. And the role at that time was about client strategy and people development. So there was a piece of my role that, you know, revolved around recruiting. And while I'd been a hiring manager in the past, I'd never kind of looked at things from a campus perspective. And so, you know, at the time we recruited strictly for summer, I think we had probably 18 interns that we would hire across Canada 12 years ago. And then probably a couple of years into the role I actually saw a need where I felt that there needed to be a dedicated person, to manage relationships with universities, to engage with students. Obviously, we're headquartered in Quebec. We're very dominant in the Quebec market. And 12 years ago, I think we were a little bit less known outside of Quebec. And so I felt that by having a dedicated person, to really kind of brand National, talk about the value of working at National would be really helpful. And for many years, I kind of campus recruiting by myself. And so I looked over all of Canada that the program has grown such that, you know, we actually have a team now. And so my role has more shifted to focusing on Ontario and Western Canada. But we've been able to broaden and deepen our diversity scholarships. We've taken on more recruiting cycles to try and meet business line needs. And so for me it's been really gratifying kind of watch this role kind of grow and become, I think really a strategic advantage for National. So right on. Laura, tell us a little more about, the specifics of your role. And in terms of I guess it sort of falls within the context of the hiring process at National for students like what that process looks like, where do you fit in and what's your role in there? my role is to kind of help brand and market National into Ontario and Western Canada. And so there's a lot of engagement with universities. Our team is responsible for the job postings. Students will often find us on LinkedIn and they'll reach out to us with questions. So we have a lot of coffee chats with students. You know, depending on where they're at and their schooling, they could be looking for very different things. So a first year student could just be asking questions about what kind of roles are there at National. So it's about sometimes managing expectations and giving them other avenues to pursue while they're on campus for the kinds of internships they should be looking for, where they can take their relevant skill sets, and build their toolbox so that when they are ready, and capable of applying for capital markets jobs, that they've gotten the right experience through internships or extracurriculars or taking additional courses outside of their curriculum. Let's say I'm an early second year, right? Because investment banking tends to recruit in the spring of second year. Now, at least it used to be it's getting earlier and earlier every year. Yeah for sure. Go to high school students soon. Yeah. We joke around, we say kindergarten. Yeah, exactly. So let's say I'm a second year student. It's the fall of second year. I cross your path and I have a, you know, a reasonable resume and a reasonable background for some of that stage. Who would theoretically be competitive for one of these roles in investment banking or in sales and trading or equity research? What is what is the recruiting process from that point until hopefully I end up getting hired in the spring? Sure. So typically, we recruit about a year or so in advance. So right now we're actually recruiting for investment banking for summer 2026. And we haven't even gone to summer 2025 yet. Right. And we're recording in just so everyone knows. If you're looking at this in retrospect, we're recording in April of 2025. So you're recruiting for summer students a year plus from now for investment banking at so in the fall. Think that, you know, we will probably be recruiting for our sales and trading roles. It's really interesting that corporate investment banking internships go so far in advance, whereas sales and trading is still, you know, a fair amount in advance. So in the fall, we'll be recruiting for summer 2026. So you really have to be aware of when firms are recruiting, right? Like some other organizations they might do a little bit of recruiting for investment banking all year long where as at National, we have you know recruiting cycle for investment banking. We have a recruiting cycle for corporate banking. We have a different recruiting cycle for sales and trading roles. There's some teams in sales and trading that may actually be looking for one year internships. So there could be programs that as part of their curriculum, they have to have a one year internship in order to get their degree. So for me, it really just depends on where the student is studying, what they're studying. And then we're able to kind of give them, I guess, some timelines into the areas and where they're interested in making sure that they're getting prepared, in some cases connecting them to people in the business and the roles that they're really interested in. Obviously, you know, I'm in campus recruiting, so I don't know the minutia of what goes on in somebody's day. So I feel that it's always helpful for the students to speak to somebody that's actually doing that role, get their perspectives on what they're doing. You know, what it's like to work at National and what the culture is like. I say to students all the time that, you know, work is work. It doesn't kind of matter where you do the work, but it does matter how you fit into the organization in which you're working and so to me, I think culture is even more important than sometimes, you know, what you might actually be doing as an intern. But by having these conversations, the students are able to, you know, broaden their network within the capital markets industry. Sometimes by learning and speaking to the people in the business, you know, they might want to explore a little bit. And there could be other groups that are associated, like let's say, for example, you know, you wanted investment banking, right? And you speak to somebody about investment banking and you think, yeah, that's still really interesting. But, oh, they mentioned something about raising equity and debt. How does that work? And so that potentially opens up the door to roles and equity capital markets or debt capital markets. Or they might even touch on something with corporate banking. And so it allows the student to kind of understand that there's a variety of different roles in a particular group, that all kind of work collaboratively and across organization, really. And so I think it's to the students benefit to have these chats and to learn and to understand what the expectation is. What do people look like, for when they're looking for candidates? What's like the ideal candidate profile? I think that's really important to give students as much information so that they can prepare accordingly. It's really interesting because you highlight something I think super important people ought to really be doing, a bunch of coffee chats. And there's probably some parallels to this for sales training and then equity research. But I-banking right. It's fall of my second year and you and I crossed paths and we have, you know effectively a coffee chat. What stands out to you from those folks that like people who you have coffee chats with and you because there's got to like obviously you meet a range of people and there's some people who you're like, okay, we need to get this person into our pipeline. So and so an equity investment banking business unit, you know, whatever industry, I'd like you to talk to this person. This person looks really strong. What is it about that person's background profile that makes them strong candidates? What stands out to you? It's kind of interesting that you kind of bring that up. There is a student that I had a coffee chat with and, you know, he was a first year student. I was back in the fall and he sent me his resume. And somehow this student had already landed a remote, a, you know, boutique type of internship. He was already part of the executive in the investment club. And I'm like, how did you do that? Super easygoing, super friendly, very open. And like, my Spidey sense just kind of started tingling and so, you know, he was.(In a good way) oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure. And so I got off the phone and I was like, this student really has potential. Like, there was just something that you couldn't almost, like, define about him. But he had, like, that star power, for lack of a better word. And so at the time, we were in the middle of sales and trading, recruiting. And so I immediately phoned someone on the team that I was kind of thinking about. And I'm like, could you have a coffee chat with this student? I need to make sure that my Spidey sense is right. But I think I think he's kind of special. And so they're like, sure, no problem. So they had a coffee chat circled back with me and said, oh no, you are so right. And so I basically went to the head and I said, look, I know typically you don't take a first year student, but there is something really special about this student. I don't want to influence your recruiting decisions, but, you know, one of your colleagues on your team has already had a chat with them. They kind of felt the same way. You might just want to think about giving him a first round interview. And so he was like, sure, no problem. So this kind of first round interview made it to final rounds. And apparently ultimately, you know, he didn't get the, internship. There was another student that had, you know, a couple more years of experience on him. But this is somebody who I then circled back with and said, you know, you didn't necessarily get the internship, but don't give up like, you are on our radar. You know, we have other recruiting cycles coming up that you might be interested in. And so he's throwing his hat in the ring for our current investment banking internship. So there's, you know, different avenues obviously to get your foot in the door. And but I think getting that experience and interviewing and you know, I think will certainly be beneficial. I think the one thing I say to students all the time is this is a tough industry, right? There are far more students than there are internships in some cases, it's an industry where you're probably going to hear no a lot, but that that just makes, you know, the time that when you get the, yes, that much more sweeter. And so don't give up, you know, just keep plugging away, do all the right things. There is not a scientific formula on how to, you know, crack the recruiting kind of code. It's a lot of, you know, shades of gray. And sometimes, you know, the stars need to be in perfect alignment, sprinkled with a bit of fairy dust. And, you know, that's when things happen. So just keep doing what you're doing. Don't turn it inward, you know, don't take it personal. Just take every opportunity you have to add to your toolbox. Connect with people and things will fall into place. Laura, this is actually a really interesting example. What is the there's a couple things I want to follow up on here. What is doing the right things after in this candidate's case, their first year student who frankly made it further than one would typically expect for the first year. For sure. What does doing the right thing mean for setting themselves up for the future? After that, after they found out that they didn't get the opportunity. Sure. So I think, you know, one could be circling back with the interviewers to understand maybe areas that they need to improve on. I think, you know, understanding that, yes, it's the financial industry that it's not about the money, it's about relationships. Right. And so it's going back on campus and talking to some upper year mentors, finding out how they were able to kind of transition into internships in the capital market space. Continue to have coffee chats, take some courses outside of your curriculum. Right. There's all kinds of organizations online that provide modeling courses or valuation courses. Some students sign up for their CFA. So there's a variety of different things that you can do, particularly in terms of extracurriculars. You know, I say to students all the time, great that you might be interested in the like, I don't know, the photography club, but when you're paying all this money for your tuition, you want to get a return on investment. And if you want to be in capital markets, you know you need to be involved in an investment club or a finance club or trading club one, it helps you take your learning and put it into practice. The second thing is, is a lot of these clubs are hosting employers, you know, so you're able to network and engage with a variety of organizations, learn more about the firms, understand their recruiting timelines, and then continue to network, continue to build all of that. A lot of these online organizations also have, you know, technical interview guides, right. So these are things that you should participate in practice, do mock interviews with, you know, a couple of students that might be ahead of you and they could, you know, really kind of grill you on things and give you some feedback. These are people who've been through it, right? So they have a better sense of what what you can anticipate. You know, it's interesting when you're talking about that student. I have a few sort of frameworks I think about of how students stand out, and that really fits into one of them, of how is it possible you've done this? Like, how can you be at either know this or have accomplished at this stage of where you are? Because it does stand out, right? When you know, when you do something you expect, you know, this is something I would typically see in a third year, and a first year student has it in and of itself. It's interesting, but it's probably also a proxy for what it is that was setting off your Spidey sense. Yeah, for sure. Most students assume that when they go to university, they're using that time to figure things out, right? That's their time to explore and understand. The thing with capital markets is there are certain kind of markers that you almost need to hit, in order to become like a viable candidate in your third summer. I think third summer students really need to start thinking about as the crucial summer, because often when they do internships, that's when firms at the end of the summer could potentially give them full time offers. Right? So you're really kind of setting yourself up for your long term career in your third summer. And so I think the students that kind of come in and think, well, I have four years to kind of figure this out. You don't particularly in the financial industry, friend of mine was a math teacher and her husband is an engineer. Their daughter is attending a commerce program. And I remember when, you know, this, a friend of mine, we were chatting as girlfriends and I said, oh, so what internship does your daughter have this summer? And she said, oh, she's running, a summer camp. And I was like, why it like that? She's in a commerce course. Like, why is she doing that? And she said, well, you know, it's kind of hard. And I think, you know, she was trying to figure things out in her first year. And I said, give me your number and I'm going to give her a call. And so we sat on the phone for a good hour and a half, and I was like, this is what you need to be doing. Here's where you need to be exploring. And she said, sometimes getting into those clubs is really hard. And I said, well, then you need to be creative. So it might not be a finance club, but join a Women in Leadership club or, you know, a sales and trading club or an algorithmic trading club, or there's all different things that they have on campus that relate to this industry. It doesn't always have to be a finance or investment club, you know, be creative. And so I said, or, you know, start your own club, right? You know, be at be a trailblazer. And so she was able to, you know, connect with a variety of people in the business. She was exploring perhaps wealth management versus capital markets. So when she went back to school this summer, like after this summer, she has been it's like completely different, like having that conversation, really. She felt like narrowed her focus down, really kind of got her moving, having suggestions. Now, you don't always have to work at a finance organization in your first and second summer. You know, I think it's about building your toolbox, right? So if you're doing something that you know, where you do research or maybe you do analysis or or, you know, maybe you're entrepreneurial, right? Like National loves people that are entrepreneurial. We've students that had a side hustle at Amazon, they resold sneakers or they started their own landscaping business. All of those things have elements of skill sets we look for in capital markets. You know, you're dealing with clients. You have to build a client base. You have to provide a valuable service. You have to grow your business. Maybe you're hiring people and you have to manage them. These are all very transferable skills. So I say to students like, you don't always have to be so linear. You can kind of like, you know, color outside the lines a little bit and still get those things in your toolbox that make you a really viable candidate in your third summer. So two things I'm hearing. One is it's people who are proactive, who are high agency. You know, you almost can't just sort of happen into these roles and be like, oh, maybe I'll do that. And so, you know, we're approaching fourth year now, that does sound kind of interesting. You're sort of late in the game at that point. So that's that's one thing. The second thing I would think, and now I'd like for you to sort of share your thoughts on this, if you don't mind, is when I think about someone who was in an entrepreneurial role or who was in a analytical type role and sort of not capital markets in their first or second summer, it would seem to me that they have to make that mental connection or the logical connection or the here's why it's transferable in the interviews, on their resume, in their coffee chats. Is that a fair way to put it? Because like when we look at resumes, like I see a bunch of students who have quasi analytical type role or looks kind of analytical, but they struggle to make that provide explanation of why that leads me to here. Sure. I mean, I think being able to connect the dots right is super important. And students also have to understand that, you know, the people who are interviewing them are fully engaged in their role. They know their role inside and out. They may not even have a clue about what their internship was at another organization. And so the students really have to think about how does their previous internship really relate to financial markets and almost come up with a bit of a story, and how, you know, I did this and this and this. I worked on this report and they use all kinds of acronyms. Well, that means nothing to the interviewer what they need to kind of say is, you know, my manager gave me responsibility to produce this report. They were looking for this. And, you know, I had all these other demands. So I had to use time management, I had to research, I had to analyze, I had to use PowerPoint to build the deck. Then I presented it to my boss, and then he had me present it to the team. So out of that there's research, there's analysis, there's time management, there's presentation skills. There's perhaps Excel skills, there's PowerPoint skills. Those are all very relevant in the capital market space. And of course it and so in one way what sort of just to tie a bow on it. You're not going to know those things are important unless you've done a bunch of coffee chats. Right. For sure. It all fits together, right? Yeah. It's it's a puzzle I think, to students. But once you kind of like, explain to them how it all works and they, they kind of put it together. They're kind of like, that's how it works. Okay, good to know. And so I think, you know, I have more conversations about students to just start thinking a bit differently, thinking a bit outside the box to not make assumptions, to not be shy. Right. Like I think, there's no such thing as a dumb question. And I think if they're coming from a place of curiosity, people are very happy to kind of, you know, explain things to them. And I think that's one thing I find about National is people here are willing to take time out of their schedule and almost like, give back. You know, in a lot of cases, they're not that far removed from university themselves. They remember what it's like to try and hustle and trying to get their foot in the door. And, you know, often, you know, when students come back and they're like that conversation with that person you connected me with. Like it was amazing. It was so enlightening. And it really made me think about things a little bit differently. And now I'm going to go do X, Y and Z to help prepare myself. And I'm like, awesome. It's amazing. Yeah. And how many people do you get? I tell people all the time, and I'm curious if you agree. They tell people don't ask questions you don't know the answer to. I think I know what you're going to say, but let's see, I have encountered so many people who I've given advice to over the years who have promptly gone and completely ignored it. And it's frustrating, you know, but at the same time, you have to let people lead their lives the way they want. But it stands out, I guess I would say when someone does say, oh yeah, I took your advice, here's where I am now for sure. It was interesting because he this particular student, was really struggling to land an appropriate type of internship, and he kind of had his side hustle was kind of interesting. He repaired log homes and like, okay, so what I see from just that aspect, you have tenacity, you're determined. You have a viable business. The hours are long, hot, sweaty. Work is typically it's in northern Ontario, you know, it's mosquito infested. Like you must really like to do that, to kind of keep going at it. And so if you can kind of take those characteristics and focus now on the finance space where you want to go, like you're going to be unstoppable. One of the things I encourage students to do, I'm curious for your reaction. And it plays a little bit into this. Is write on LinkedIn, write about companies. You're researching, write about macro trends you think are interesting, write about, you know, there's tons of podcast like Business Breakdowns and Acquired and Odd Lots and Invest Like the Best and so forth. Tons of them. You know, write about interesting podcasts you listen to because it it provides proof of work, if you will, kind of what you're describing and that, you know, yes, I am legitimately interested in this. This isn't just me going, that sounds like fun. I do need a job, but that sounds like fun. Let me go do that. It shows real interest, right? And some level of commitment. I guess that's similar to other folks that other places they would be expected to do stock pitches and, you know, tell me about a business you like. Why do you like it? Why would you buy it, that kind of thing? Sure. Sometimes it's tell us about a recent transaction that you've seen or what do you think? Like I think for us it's really about finding students that do have that genuine interest, right? That they're not just kind of ticking the boxes and hoping it'll all fall in place. So students that, you know, read the newspaper every day and kind of can draw lines between what's going on in the news versus how it's going to affect the markets. And, you know, there's plenty going on these days. So there's lots to talk about. And I always say the students have a stock pitch in your back pocket. I'm not asking you to like hold it up and go, you know, page through page, but that you're able to be fully confident in speaking about not only the company, but the direction in their heading and maybe the industry. You know, that this company is in how it's going to perform overall. So being able to speak really confidently with material that you're familiar with, you’re, you know, seeking out, you're paying attention to that helps set you apart during an interview process. So I agree with you entirely, but I'm I'm curious for your take. Why does that matter? Why is it important? Because I think a lot of people hear this advice and they're like, well, you know, like I don't get like, why should I be like, why bother with like, why would anyone care? Well, it's interesting because I say to students, you know, if the reality is, you know, if you're interested in this industry because of the money, right? The money actually gets old pretty quick. Particularly in the early years, you know, you're going to be working long hours. And while the pace seems great, most of your time is going to be taken up with working. So they're going to want to spend time with friends and family in their downtime. They're not going to want to clean the house and do grocery shopping and do laundry. And so you're going to find that you're going to throw money at those things, right? You're going to take your clothes to be dry cleaned. You're going to have somebody come and clean your house. Maybe you're going to order in dinner a lot. Because the money just helps, really to help facilitate your ability to work. As you kind of earn your stripes and, you know, go up through the ranks, then you will have more time to do those things. But, you know, you have to want to be in this industry because you love it, right? For people who end up doing I-banking versus sales and trading versus equity research, what are the overlapping characteristics of things that you know will look good on on resumes and in your background? And are there any is are there things it would be like, you know, highly relevant for I-banking, not really relevant for sales and trading, that kind of thing. You know, things like grades. You talked about clubs, other things that sort of stand out that people do or present effectively. Sure. I mean, I think that, you know, people who are interested in corporate investment banking, you know, maybe they they've taken a like a lot of accounting programs, business, commerce, finance tend to fall into corporate investment banking and for sales and trading, I think it's a bit of a mix. I think that there are some teams within sales and trading that are specifically looking for more quantitative students. So engineering, computer science, data analytics, there are still some teams in sales and trading that are happy to have a business, commerce, finance student. I think coding is becoming more important. Two years ago it was more of a nice to have. Now it's becoming more of a must have. And then equity research, I think it's, you know, a bit of a combination of both groups, people that know their way around a financial statement and a balance sheet that have a very good command of the, you know, language to be able to, like, write these papers and, you know, commentaries along with the, equity research analysts. You know, I think that, there's a variety of skill sets that are needed. You know, I think even like our IT team, you know, they're looking for software engineers and so the business, like, although it's kind of all related to finance, there's such a different variety of skill sets that can find a home in capital markets. So I think it's kind of interesting. Yeah. That is really interesting. How important are grades? So do you end up with like, you know, at below a certain point it's going to be a real struggle for you? I think part of the problem is, honestly, Ashley, is that we receive so many applications. Grades is one of the quickest and easiest ways to kind of narrow the field down. And so most organizations typically have a cutoff. And because capital markets like the bar is set pretty high, so is the bar for our cut off. But that. That's not to say that we've never hired people with a lower GPA. And perhaps they've had a coffee chat with somebody. It went really well. They applied for the role because of that relationship. People are willing to say, okay, well, like, let's throw this person in the mix. And so we have had students that have come in under the threshold. But typically when, you know, from our perspective on the campus team, it's the fastest and easiest way to whittle down the number of applications, the business lines, you know, their job is to make money and they don't want to spend hours and hours and hours reviewing resumes. So they kind of leave that to us and we just try and send them the best. And so it's based on grades, it's based on you know, relevant kind of experience, relevant extracurriculars. We've even had students include like they've built you know, their own stock pitch and they've included it, as an example of their work. So we try and pass that over the business. And then, you know, I think between the coffee chats that the business lines have had, you know, they'll get a bunch of people's screening resumes, they will debate why they should have one candidate interview over another, because spots are limited. And, you know, it is super competitive for sure. So, Laura, I'm I'm intrigued by how students cross your path and get on your radar. You know, when they've got to start thinking about this stuff. Can you maybe we just talk about a few things around there. I'm curious for your thoughts around that. You know, I can go do an info session at a university. And, you know, there's always a networking piece at the end, and the students are just like, what's your LinkedIn? They the kids are getting smarter about how to use LinkedIn and and what it's used for kind of joke around with my boss that my LinkedIn doesn't belong to me anymore. It belongs to National. Because, you know, the students kind of connect and then, you know, sometimes it'll just be a quick question that they have that I'm able to answer. Right. In LinkedIn, oftentimes, they'll want to have a more deeper conversation about their personal situation. And to be fair, it's gotten to the point where there are so many coffee chats, that are being requested. I actually don't have time to work. So we've to a bit of a model where every couple of weeks we will host an “Office Hours”, and so we have registration link to students. They can sign up and we'll take a few minutes to an hour to kind of quickly go through National capital markets, recruiting ideal candidate profile timelines and have we'll hit all the highlights of the questions typically. Yeah. And then we'll open it up for Q&A. So I think like we've had a few of these sessions already and they're they're going quite well. And the kids kind of get the information that they're looking for. Sometimes your questions will be answered by somebody else to what have the same kind of questions. So it's all, you know, kind of worked out very well. And we're able to actually, you know, meet with more people than doing individualized coffee chats. I have had some students kind of circle back after the session again, something maybe a little bit more specific to them. But, you know, it's really I think, been found useful for us to try to reach as many students as possible. I went out to, West Coast in January, and when I came back, I had like 80 requests. It was crazy. Wow. That is like I don't think I've heard that before, but it's a really interesting idea because it really enables you to broaden the pool of candidates who at least cross your radar and who are getting some of the more fundamentals. Right. So you have people who already know what they're interested in, And I mean, let's talk investment. And just because that's earliest timeline and, you know, it's at least equivalently complex and difficult to get a job there as sales and trading or for research. And they say, Laura, I'll do whatever I will. I will accomplish what you tell me to accomplish. What advice can you give me that would maximize my chances in terms specifics like do this, this is what you're you know, if you can get this grade, you know, you're above you know, you're you're definitely competitive if you join this club or if you do these things, what are those things that you would that you would recommend that would that you that person would then have a very high probability of success? Yeah. So I think it's, you know, great GPA. Let me say they really they would have they would be very, very competitive guys. Because then it's your interview skills and things like that which may be something to talk about. Yeah for sure. So I think, you know, the three big ones obviously are GPA, work experience and extracurriculars. But then I think, you know, participating right in things. So just as your part of the club or anybody part of the club, but if you're taking those opportunities like doing stock pitch competitions or case competitions or trading simulations or participating in hackathons, it's kind of you're not just a member of the club. You're actually like living the experience. And so having those things on your resume, you know, like maybe. I don’t know we just we did a couple hackathons earlier in the winter and, you know, like 700 students showed up to one of them. And so if you're able to put on your resume, finished third out of, you know, 500 plus teens at a hackathon, while that's kind of cool or interesting or even a stock pitch competition, the fact that you're doing things outside of your actual curriculum, you're spending time, you know, all these things take time, right? We had a stock pitch competition last week, and, you know, students were like, we were up to four in the morning, you know, like practicing. I think that just shows that you're willing to kind of put in the work that's needed. And it gives you a little bit of insight as to the effort that you need to kind of maintain in this industry in order to be successful. I mean, some students’ view thank gosh, you know, I got the offer for the internship. That was the easy part. Like, now you got to like, really show us what you've got. And so, you know, I don't know about other organizations, but for us, like, we really view your internship as a first step in a potential long term career. And so while you're interning with us over the summer, it's basically like a four month job interview, right? Like we're able to have a view on you over four months, kind of assess, you know, the work that you're doing. Are you able to take more complex and challenging work over the course of the summer? And then you're kind of evaluated against your peers and like, literally the cream of the crop are the ones that kind of are able to secure that return offer. Okay. So we we see you highlighted something super important around not just being a member of the club, but like actually the gaining the benefits of that experience. So that that one are really important. I think that doesn't get talked about all the time. It is important, you may not want to give away state secrets, but with respect to GPA, if I come to you with like a 3.7 or above, am I competitive? Absolutely. Okay. And so you would say you would tell them, you know, get to 3.7 or above, get to join sort of relevant clubs. Doesn't have to be the only thing you do, but join relevant clubs and meaningfully participate get the value of that experience. And we talked you touched about talked about a little bit what that means. Then if they were to say, okay, I've got those things, Laura, what do I do next. You're going to talk about networking, a bunch of coffee chats. And then in the interview process, what is it that you would what advice would you give to someone to maximize the value of those things? Because again, like a club, you're going to do a coffee chat to go check. Or you could do a coffee chat and extract real value from it. You can go into an interview and answer their questions, or you can go into an interview and walk out with them thinking, wow. And we touched on a little bit. I'm just curious if there's anything you would throw in there about that and anything else process wise. Sure. I think, you know, I say to students all the time like, don't be the one hit wonder. Typically what happens is when a posting comes out like not only our campus team, but like the organization as a whole, like, these kids are creeping LinkedIn and they're just sending like, all these, you know, requests and everyone is just like, you know, like this inundated, overwhelming tide of, you know, reach outs. And to be fair, like, there's not enough hours in the day. Right. And so I say to them, you know, don't wait until the posting comes out. Like you should be networking like six months in advance of the posting. And it could take some time for somebody to actually respond back to you. It could take time to actually have the meeting because people are busy. You still want to leave enough time in between the time that you meet and the time that the posting happens. To circle back, right? It's not about the internship. It's about building that relationship. Right? So that you've you're able to have 2 or 3 additional interactions before the posting actually goes live. And then at that point, you know, you circle back and to your person, you say, hey, you know, I saw the posting dropped, super interested. I'm going to be applying. Could you refer me? Yeah. And you're not one of 50 randos reaching out to them, right? Exactly like you, because you've actually built up this kind of relationship over time. And let's just say you weren't successful for that recruiting cycle. Well, that doesn't mean your relationship stops, right? Like you kind of nurture that. When I think back, you know, many, many years ago, I worked at a fairly large financial organization and I was, you know, my mid 20s. And I was there for about ten years. But then over time, like people, you know, would leave or, you know, whatever the case may be. And so now when I look at my LinkedIn, you know, I've got like senior VP's in my LinkedIn and they're all people that I kind of started working with, you know, 25 plus years ago. But they've gone on in their own careers, they've moved around. And so you had, you know, a group of people that worked at a company, but then they've kind of all scattered to the four winds. But you still maintain those networks, right? And it may come in handy down the road. And the thing about the financial industry, people think it's huge. It's it's worse than like the seven degrees of Kevin Bacon. Like I call it almost like three degrees. Somebody always knows somebody who knows somebody. And once you develop these relationships, you really have to nurture them and keep them going. I'm not saying, like, you know, you have to be in touch every month, but, you know, every quarter, every six months, even once a year, you know, just circle back, grab a coffee, catch-up, figure out what's going on in each other's lives and it really is those relationships that will help you move up in your career. The thing about recommendations are, you know, people are putting their own reputation on the line. Right? And so for somebody to refer you, that means that they really believe that you are the person and that if the organization hired you, that you wouldn't bomb and make them look bad, right, because you were the person that recommended them. That's right. Defining these relationships, and keeping them going proves invaluable over the long haul. So I get that the mechanisms of that sort of with peers and laterals. And I think that's an underappreciated thing. It's so easy early in your career and while you're in school to not make that connection, but, you know, as you as you alluded to, as you move, but as time passes, you move up in your career. Well, so is a lot of your network who are now and becoming in much more senior roles in a bunch of different places. So maintaining those relationships is super important. But I'm curious for someone who wants to maintain a relationship with someone who they've had a coffee chat with, like, what does that look like? How do you do that? Because I often get the question, how do I, you know, hi, how are you? What's going on? You know, like, how would you recommend that? I've had students say to me, I don't know what to say. I feel like I'm stalking them. I think it needs to be a relationship that's mutual. Right. So it's not just the student always contacting the business person with, like, I want, I need. I think students need to be an equal partner in the relationship. And so maybe it's as you're getting to know this person in the business, you know, they have an interest in a particular sector. Maybe there's a hobby that, you know, you guys have shared and you come across an article or an interesting podcast and you can reach out and say, hey, you know, I just came across this and I thought it would be really interesting. You mentioned in our chat that you really liked X, Y, Z. And, you know, I thought this was great and I just thought I would share it and that it's kind of a reciprocal kind of relationship. And as you get to know each other more, there's more opportunities to kind of do those types of things. That's a I think it's a great, great insight, a great idea. What it also means is when I go back to thinking about the coffee chat, I really don't want to leave without getting some insight into, you know, I'm going to know obviously, what sector they're focused on. If there's a sector, there might not be a bad idea to ask a question like your, you know, obviously this is incredibly busy. What do you know? What do you do for fun or what did you you know, what were some of your hobbies in university? What are the some of the things you're interested in outside of work? Sure gives you that insight. Absolutely. And I think, you know, this is a very demanding industry. And so you will find that a lot of professionals do have varied interests outside of work to help decompress. Right. And, you know, I think one of the funniest things I read on a resume, you know, they had all these great skills, but at the end, they talked about their interests, and they made some kind of self-deprecating comment about golf, like, how they’re a terrible golfer. And I actually laughed out loud when I read it because I thought, well, you have a good sense of humor. And it's interesting because I've actually asked people in the business. So when you're screening resumes, what do you look for? Right. Like what makes the resume stand out for you? And some people will be like, I just look at GPA and work experience. Other people will say, well, I just like, look at the transcripts. I want to see if they're taking all those easy courses to make sure that they're GPAs high. And then other people will say, well, I look at their interests. I want to see what they do outside of school to be kind of a well-rounded individual. And so that's what I say to students. You never know what is going to resonate with someone who's reviewing your resume, right? Like, for me, I love a good cover letter. And I know cover letters are very controversial. I feel that. I'm using your resume as a bit of a checklist. You know, tick, tick the right stuff. But your cover letter is how I know you as a person, what makes a good cover letter? Like you said, you're a fan of good cover letters. What are the characteristics of a good cover letter? It could be a bunch of different things, honestly, actually. So, you know, being more in administration early on in my career, formatting is a big thing. So people who actually know how to type a proper letter in a proper format, that certainly catches my attention. The second thing is, is it's an opportunity for you to tell me about yourself. Like, it's kind of like it rounds out your resume, like, I know you've got the skills, but then I need to understand kind of what's going on up here. it feels like you're describing an origin story, right? Superheroes have origin stories. Yeah, a little bit. You know, I love like triumph over adversity. Right. So I've had students that, you know, got U.S. scholarships and for sports and they went, they got played, their scholarship got pulled at that point in time, you know, all the universities were kind of full. They had to go to, a reasonably unknown school and to study finance. And they really had to battle because they were not attending a university that would be typically in, you know, the finance kind of radar. And so they would talk about all the steps that they took in order to, to do that. Like so there's a variety of ways you can kind of structure your cover letter, think if there's like weird stuff going on in your resume, like maybe one semester, like your GPA tanked. And so it's kind of affected your overall GPA. You know, if you kind of highlight maybe that on your resume, like, I don't know, we've had situations where, you know, there was a death in the family that very much impacted them. And so their studies became less important for that particular term. Well, we're human, right. And so, you know, when we have a bit of insight onto that, we're not just looking at transcripts in your resume, but we have a bit more of an understanding as to okay, so this is why, you know, the GPA kind of tanked. We're more willing to give people a shot. And so I know cover letters are very controversial, but I think that's why we ask for them is so that we can kind of get to know you as a person and for you to take that opportunity to, you know, tell us about your motivation or tell us about why you're interested or to kind of explain maybe some weird stuff going on that is completely relatable, right? Like life happens, we get that, and so if you're kind of like on the bubble with GPA, we might be like, you know what? Like, let's give this person a shot. It's interesting too, because of what you're describing. I think also is characteristics that are highly relevant, that employers value. That might not be as easily illustrated on a resume. So resilience like, yes, resilience is super important. But you know, on your resume is it can you look at something and be like, oh yes, this is a resilient person, maybe. But you can really tell that story effectively in a cover letter to some degree. You almost want to look at them, you know, complementary as complements to each other. Right. So like my GPA is rock solid, and, you know, my work experience is good, but I think I have gaps here. I don't have the gaps. But you could interpret that on my resume that way. Let me fill in that picture on my cover letter by highlighting and illustrating why that you know, why that that's actually not a gap or why that you know how I'm strong in that area. Yeah, for sure. I think, you know, as I said, we use the resume really as a checkbox, at least for me when I'm going through so many. But it's the cover letter that I think really adds the color and flavor of who the applicant is. And gives us a sense of that. Okay, let's shift gears very shortly. I have two more questions related to this, and then we'll move on. Is there anything you see students often do wrong that you would wish they did less of because it's not helping them, but people seem to perceive that or they just don't? I think, students sometimes, particularly in an interview situation, feel like they need to have all the answers and they're a bit taken aback when they don't. And so they might try and like, fluff an answer and kind of massage it and I say students all the time, if you don't know something, just say you don't know it. Be honest about it. Don't try and like, you know, massage it. And these guys could smell it a mile away, right? So you would better you'd be best served by saying, you know, I haven't really studied that yet, but if I had to think about it logically and like the interviewers are going to kind of like help me a little bit because they want to see if you can maybe come up to the right answer on your own just by critical thinking. So I always say to students, you know, you don't always have to know everything, but at least be honest about it and then give it your best shot. I actually had a student that was interviewing and they kind of asked, I think, a bit of an interesting question. It was for sales and trading and, he didn't know the answer and he was like, you know, I don't know that answer, but I will circle back with you after the meeting. And so he went off and found an answer, and then he wrote a big, long email and really went into like a lot of depth about a question and answering it. Didn't he get the job! right? So the fact that he wasn't ashamed by it and it didn't throw him off his game for the rest of the interview, he was just like, you know, let me look into that for you and I'll get back to you. And he went and like within the hour had like a really solid paragraph on and provided the answer and he got the job. So I think what's important interesting about that too, is it's more than sort of in and of itself that's important and sort of the composure to be able to do that. Sure, composure is a valuable thing because you might be in front of a client and not have an answer immediately at hand, but it's also that the rest of the interview was good enough to carry the day, right? For sure. If you didn't know the answer and got completely thrown, the rest of your interview is going to be a, you know, potentially a disaster. And so in maintaining your composure in that situation, in and of itself, provides valuable information that might be that that might speak well to you for sure or speak well about you I should say. Let's talk, if we can, for a second about LinkedIn, I'm assuming you guys will peruse people's LinkedIn. Is there anything that you look at and you're like, okay, you know, you have to have these bare minimums otherwise, like, I'm almost like, why are you bothering? What I mean by that is like like banners, pictures, descriptions you know, some details about you. Anything like that. The jump no is fine too. I'm just curious for sure. To be fair, I'm so busy, I don't have time to kind of go creep students LinkedIn pages. But on occasion I have gone to look and, you know, there are some students that I've had coffee chats with, and I know that they're participating in a variety of activities or competitions or clubs or whatever. And yet when I go look at their page, it's like bare bones, like it just has the university, what they're studying. Sometimes they don't even have like, their expected graduation date. And so and then it's kind of like blank space, you know, and I think what a missed opportunity. So I feel like not only do you, you know, put the university and the faculty and your graduation date in there, you put your internships in there as well. You it should really almost be I wouldn't say a carbon copy of your resume, but kind of close. You know, if you participate in, you know, stock pitch competitions or case competitions, whatever the case may be like, take pictures, right. Make comments like, you know, me and my team blah blah blah, participated in X this weekend and take a couple pictures. And then if you happen to be the winner, ask the organizers to send you the photo that they typically take. These are all things where you can showcase you, your accomplishments and just help build your brand. Really, that's a great point. Yeah, and I think you nailed it too. It's like it's a missed opportunity, right? Like, why would you, you know, leave on the table, an opportunity to reflect well on yourself and have someone go there and be like, oh, yeah, that was that person. I remember we talked about this in this. Yeah, they were kind of impressive as opposed to going there and being like was at them, right? Weird. And so so I think that's interesting. One of the things I'm curious about, you touched on some level of coding knowledge and experience historically being, oh, that's kind of good. That's nice to have. Whereas now it's like, you know, it kind of, you know, it's not like you're never getting hired without it. But you kind of you kind of need to have it. We've more so in financial markets have moved to using Copilot as opposed to GPT. And there's all kinds of like rules and regulations around using AI because we need to make sure it's ethical and all those kind of other things that we need to consider. Being knowledgeable about Copilot or knowing how to code or how to maybe manage some big data sets is certainly important. Let's say we're talking five years from now. Is your sense that if I'm interviewing with you and I say, yeah, I don't really I know about this, you know, LLM stuff and ChatGPT etc., but I don't really use it much at all. Will, you know, are we getting to the point where that's a little bit like coding, where, you know, you don't need to be a like a coding expert, but you kind of have to have like the basic understanding of the logic of it. Yeah, I think so. I think, you know, more and more things are becoming more automated. Being able to, you know, even like things like building macros. Right. Like I have no clue how to do that. But, you know, we have had interns build macros few years ago, that we're still using. Yeah. Okay, let's before we shift gears, let me just ask a very quick question on the job search side of things, is there anything on the job search side of things that we haven't covered? Yeah, I would think, there's a few things actually, that I asked that. So the first thing is, is I'm shocked by how many students shoot themselves in the foot before they even get out of the gate. So a few years ago, we received we're going through a recruiting cycle and we received a ton of applications, and I kind of did the math at the end of it, and probably 35% ish somewhere around there of all applicants didn't get considered because they didn't follow the instructions in the job posting. So we ask for a cover letter, a resume, copy of your transcripts. There are so many students that we'll just throw in a resume and figure that that's good enough. We received so many applications, our team just does not have the time to follow up with people. And so if you and I kind of take the view of if you can't follow basic instructions, how can we trust you with multi-million dollar accounts? Right. It's that it is. Absolutely. So, you know, read the postings. Do as people ask you to do, you know, step one. Step two is, you know, work your network. Hopefully you've been having coffee chats. You know, ask people if they'd be willing to refer you. Be prepared for the interview. Don't just study all the technicals. Work on behaviorals. Work on market based questions. I say to students all the time, I could tell the interviewers to only focus on behaviorals, but I'm not online when the interviews are happening or I'm not sitting in the room with them. When the interviews are happening. Minute that door shuts. I don't have a line of sight and they can ask you, you know, a variety of different questions. So make sure that you are fully prepared on all fronts and then follow up. It's you know, I know it's kind of seems like an old person thing to do, but send a thank you note, you know, reiterate your interest in the role and why you can be a good fit. It just it's just a nice thing to do and it stands out. A lot of students don't do that. So the students that do, it just shows that it's kind of a courtesy and respect thing. It's remarkable that there is anyone today, anybody who gets to the interview stage or cause a coffee chat, who doesn't know they should be sending thank you emails after it blows my mind. Yeah. It's crazy. It is not a secret. This is not like some thing you know, that has only been revealed to a few chosen people. You should know this. Yeah, I think, you know, students sometimes think that it seems fuddy duddy, you know, and to follow up and to thank people for their time. And, you know, like, these people are busy. Their job is not to coach students. Right. I think that the fact that people have taken time out of their schedule to help impart knowledge or help facilitate your transition into capital markets, it's just it's a courtesy and respect thing and an acknowledgment of that. I guess the final thing I would say is that just because you get the answer that you weren't hoping for, if you don't get the job, it's not necessarily a reflection on you, per se. It's a very competitive industry. And I think, you know, sometimes why one person is picked over another, it's really kind of indefinable. So don't take that as a defeat to really take that as a challenge and move forward and learn from it. And you'll be just better prepared for the next kind of go-around, you know, don't be lazy in your job search. You know? The other thing I want to say to students, too, is sometimes students come in with a very defined notion of what they want, right? It's like, oh, I want to work in equities. And that's all I want to do and that kind of thing. And they want to sit on a trading desk. And I say to students, well, don't cut your nose off to spite your face, right. Like the whole goal is to like, get in, get your foot in the door. And sometimes, you know, if you're being offered a, a different desk and it doesn't really line up with what you were hoping for, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Think of it as you get experience in the capital markets industry. You have four months to show what you have. You have four months of being able to access the global address list. So you're able to maybe connect with people and teams that maybe you really wanted. But what you need to do is prove yourself first. And when you get the return offer, then maybe there's some wiggle room to maybe negotiate for your next internship. Maybe you could get the desk that you really wanted. We had a student who initially interviewed for Equity Research, and he was from what people would call a non-target university. And so I had had a couple of coffee chats with him, actually, and he went through the process, didn't get the job in equity research, but I liked him. So much. I reached out to an MD and said, hey, I heard that you're now looking for an intern. You weren't before. I have somebody in mind that I'd like you to meet. And so she ended up interviewing him and and a couple of other people, and he ended up getting the job in kind of our institutional sales team. And that summer, there was another team doing kind of economy and strategy, and they they were a bit underwater, so they needed help. And so he raised his hand and he was like, oh, you know, would you mind if I kind of helped out this other team a little bit? And the hiring manager said, no, that's totally fine. Anyway, he did some work for this other team while still doing his internship. Lo and behold, guess who got a return offer but for the economy and strategy team? And then guess who came back and got a full time offer, right? Like so. Don't be so focused and narrow minded like some times you get to where you want to be in a bit more of a circuitous route, and that's okay. You'll still have the next 30, 40 years to really kind of hone in on what you really want to do. But sometimes it's it's just getting your foot in the door and getting that experience and expanding your network and learning more. And there could be things that you're not even aware of that could be of interest to you down the road. Interesting. That is, it's a it's such a smart way to approach it. And I think it's it's so easy to be like, well, I wanted to do this and it didn't work out, so. Oh, well, one piece of advice I've heard in the past, which was, I thought was like a very, very clever approach is especially if we're talking about someone in first year or second year is if you don't ultimately get the role and a thank you note, you know, I appreciate the time you took, you know, I hope it works out really well for you guys. And I would love to be considered in future if opportunities come up, because not everyone who gets hired as interns works out. Or maybe person takes another offer, something changes. And you, having potentially been in the candidate pool and you know, again, it's about composure and how you present yourself. And you know that's useful information in that. Okay. So that person is mature enough to recognize that this is potentially a longer term relationship and they want to present themselves well. And they might I mean, I've heard of situations where the person who actually got hired didn't pick that didn't select the role or something happened. They had to they had to, you know, duck out of it. And the person was like, okay, well, let me go back to the other person because I was actually really impressed with how they handled themselves. Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think you never know how things are going to turn out. And you don't want to burn bridges, right? You know, there have been situations where students have, you know, ducked out of their offer for whatever reason. And, you know, not that we love that. But we also understand, like, sometimes things happen, but it's how they handle it, almost, you know, we've had situations where So, you know, this industry, it's small enough that you do not want to burn bridges. And people know people, right? So you know, your reputation really is all that you have. And, you know, you don't want to miss out on opportunities because you didn't handle things maybe as appropriately and professionally as you could have. Let's shift gears. What are the things you would tell 22 year old Laura, who was potentially working down that track, know the role that you're applying for, and it sounds kind of trite, but there's a lot of students who think they want something because they hear all the great stuff about it. But sometimes the reality could be very different from what they expected. And so, you know, really have a fulsome understanding of not only the great things that landing whatever job could be, but maybe some of the challenges in the role. You know, I think most people understand, like in the IB space, the hours can be long. Sales and trading, a lot of pressure. So having to make quick decisions worth multimillion dollar, you know, transactions and early and early mornings. Oh yes. Very early mornings. You know, like each role in capital markets has its own kind of advantages and maybe some challenges. And I think it's kind of understanding that, you know, for equity research reporting periods are crazy. And so the other thing I would also like to say to students is, you know, if you think that you can work a 60, 70 hour week, let's say you're like, oh, yeah, that's not so bad. I think anybody could do that, you know, for a short period of time. But if you're, you know, extrapolating this out to maybe the first five years of your full time career, some people over a period of time like that's too much for them. And so really kind of knowing yourself and what you're willing to do, what you're not willing to do for your job, and having a full understanding of the role, good and bad. You know, I think it stops people from making long term mistakes. And you find out that I think through coffee chats are a very effective way to do that. If you effectively ask questions, one of the things I tell students is that if you can't really effectively answer two questions, you need to do more coffee chats. You need to do a better job in them. And question number one is what do you think your favorite things about about this job are going to be? And what do you think your least favorite things like, you know, no job is perfect as you've articulated. You know, if you don't know what you probably aren't going to really love about the job, then it's likely you haven't done enough work to understand what the job is. For sure. And you know you don't want to spend valuable time pursuing something that ultimately isn't right for you. And and that's why I love kind of internships. You know, we've had students that have come in and they're just like, it's this or bust, and they get the job that they wanted. And but the summer, you know, they're kind of like touching base with me. And by the end of the summer, they're like, you know, I learned a lot, but I can't see myself doing this for 30 years. So I'm like, it's amazing the information that is so valuable to know. But you've been able to gain all these extra skill sets and, you know, and so now, you know, what have you done? And they're like, well, actually, I reached out to somebody, you know, in another area of the bank that I thought was super cool. And we're having conversations. And so when they're recruiting, I'm going to apply. I'm like, perfect, right. And then you have students that really thrive in kind of that capital markets environment. And so kind of knowing what you're willing to do and what you're not willing to do, I think is just it's huge and it stops you from making like wasting time a you in these internships have enormous access to people who will talk to you, which you would be very hard to find them otherwise, you know, and you wouldn't necessarily like. I think I described people to the spectrum right on one end of the spectrum is your best friend who says, oh my God, Laura, I have to talk to you right now. And you're like, okay, absolutely. I'll drop everything. And on the other end is some random person who says that to you and you're like, what do you who are you? What are you talking about? And the further along that credibility spectrum we can move, the better. And if you're internal as an intern, you know you're way along that spectrum. More people will take that conversation with you for sure. And I think that, you know, we host, you know, like I'm part of developing the the internship program at National. And so we create, you know, learning opportunities, fireside chats with MDs and, you know, social activities, you know, both within the internship group as well as the organization as a whole. And I'm shocked sometimes by how many students never show up. They're just nose to the grindstone. They figure as long as they do good work, that's going to be what does it for them. But there's a whole relationship aspect to working that whole social thing that you have to, you know, not just focus on the work, that there are relationships and social things that help round you out and make you and more of an ideal candidate. You know, I think, you know, the MDs are taking time to have chats with these students. And, you know, it's like an hour long session. And the students that have actually, like, circled back with them after and went for a coffee chat with the MD because they went to the session, they have something in common to kind of reference and start talking about, and students have actually lined up their next internship by just focusing on and going through these activities that allowing people to get to know them. And, you know, everybody wants to make sure that they have great people sitting beside them on the desk. Laura, when you think about people who you've seen who really performed well in any of the three, equity research, sales or trading or investment bank or corporate investment banking, what are the characteristics of those people? You know, there's people like early on in their career, people are like, that person has star written all over them. Okay. What is it about them? What are those characteristics that you see that often cause that to be the case? I think that one, they tend to be very humble. They tend to be a sponge. They are all about saying yes, they're all about raising their hands and like trying new and different things and really maybe even doing things out of their comfort zone. Right. And those are the the students that I think, just knock it out of the park, you know, they're willing to take, you know, some risk. And they're willing to they're coachable. So, you know, I think I think those are the students that really set themselves apart. You know, they're resourceful. These are all things that we try and look for in candidates. Sometimes it's not apparent necessarily in the interview. And I think that's why the internships are important because it gives us four months. Right. And to kind of evaluate students and the students that really do well are the ones that really, really look at this as a huge opportunity, make the most out of it, other than the inverse of everything you just said, is there anything among the people who you don't, you see who are not typically who are not successful? Are there any commonalities that you see? Their mistakes, they make, things you read. They write. Yes. So, you know, we evaluate the students at the end of the summer. And so a lot of the comments that I see or feedback that the students will be given are things like, didn't double check their work, was told to double check their work and still didn't double check their work. So, you know, I think when people kind of say, hey, you know, next time just make sure you do this, it seems kind of casual, like it's not a big deal, but they need to internalize it, like, oh God, I really need to make sure I do this the next time. Laura, why don't we we look to wrap up here. Do you have any before we go? Do you, you know, any last thoughts? Anything you want to emphasize to students, about either job search success, career success, anything we haven't talked about yet? Any question I didn't ask you that I should have asked you. Anything there? I think we've covered a lot, Ashleyt to be honest with you. You know, I just want to thank you so much for having me on your podcast. It's been a real pleasure. And hopefully, you know, we've been able to kind of show how passionate I am about students being able to land their dream job in capital markets. And, I really enjoyed our conversation today. Yeah. No, I did as well. I really want to, you know, express my gratitude to our our audience is gratitude to you for taking the time you did. I know you have a very busy job and a busy life. There was there was a lot of really interesting and valuable little nuggets in there, and both in sort of tactical stuff, but also bigger picture stuff. So thank you very much for the time and look forward to staying in touch with you, Laura. All right. Thank you. All right.